quote:

Originally posted by TRA-742:
Paul you removed the part about you and me playing a round of golf. That sounds like fun! I am a better golfer than a motocrosser and I know thats not saying much. Next time your in town I will buy us a round but beware if you kick my ass at golf as you do with starts I might have alittle breakdown on the course. I can tell your are just suckering me in on this golf thing with your statement- i am so much faster than you crap- when I came off the track you were right behind me everytime unless maybe you were a lap down?

Having a fulltime job would be a very difficult challenge for me but I can also tell ya being self employed is like having a full time pounding headache.

No you don't have to live in a Amish compound to be alittle independent. Just need the basics like: GUNS-AMO-FUEL-WATER-FOOD AND DON'T FORGET THE CHAINSAW-

I will be practicing my starts and you train hard so you don't get passed in like the first 500ft of the race-those holeshots must make a guy very tired!- hope to see ya in Spokane Paul...It's on!LOL



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul 061:
So Tra is it Tea Time or Tee time

So the point is not just the folks at GM, it's the ripple effect of vendors, restaurants, hotels etc. I will agree that the gov't may not be running things very well but things at GM have to change. Not everyone can be in business for themselves and in reality everyone relies on everyone unless you live in an Amish compound in Texas growing your own food and making your own furniture.

I thought you were someone else LOL Ya you are much faster than me but I'm back in training mode and maybe I won't be so easy to pass next time! See ya in Spokane

[/QUOTE

I used to be a good golfer (5 hdcp) I've always been a crappy MX racer but I'm hoping to get better. If I can ever keep up consistently with guys like you, Pike and Linde I'll be happy. The starts are the only thing I have in my bag. Oh and I have been known to be a little eratic in the corners when guys are trying to pass me, so be careful when you pass

My bad paul. Their are people at boeing that do work there ass off. Now just think if everyone one did. They would never be behind on orders. It must be extremely frustrating having to put up with these people at your work place. At least with my work I can tell them they are a peice of crap and fire them and not have to worry about the union getting invovled for firing someone that should have been fired a long time ago.

Unfortunately Wheatley, people do not understand the building trades and they make statements that are plain and simply, wrong.

The first thing out of someone's mouth when they address unions is seniority, you know the protection of fat old lazy losers.

I'm sure there's lots of that going on in Local 86 right?

The building trades, along with many other unionized sectors of industry, are vastly different than what most who are against unions may think.

is there something wrong with everybody making a decent living.whats up

There is stuff like that in local 86 aaron. but i dont have a problem helping out the old timers that are still gboing to work with broke down bodies. They have put in there time and have a huge wealth of knowledge to learn from. its the guy that bought his journeyman book and has no clue as to what hes doing and has no pride in his work. Steals every paycheck he makes. Thats what makes me mad and others bad mouth unions. Being in a union has provided me with alot. Bought my first house when I was 23. had medical insurance to pay for all my mx injurys. I have a good pension and annuity. Its a good fit for me and alot of other people. There is nothing wrong with everybody making a decent living. They just need to make that money themselves and not hide behind a union or a big corporation. Take pride in your work and you will always make money without leaching off anyone. I will say it was awesome to see so many people at the p.r.o. rounds with such a tight economy. motocrossers are a tough bunch that wont go down without a fight. I love this sport!!!

quote:

Originally posted by wheatley193:
My bad paul. Their are people at boeing that do work there ass off. Now just think if everyone one did. They would never be behind on orders. It must be extremely frustrating having to put up with these people at your work place. At least with my work I can tell them they are a peice of crap and fire them and not have to worry about the union getting invovled for firing someone that should have been fired a long time ago.

isnt that funny. i love how these non union guys think they all work hard. what a joke. you have bad apples on both sides but some dont seeit that way. i can tell you ive worked both and the union side has proveded my family alot better life.

quote:

Originally posted by B Sharkey:
isnt that funny. i love how these non union guys think they all work hard. what a joke. you have bad apples on both sides but some dont seeit that way. i can tell you ive worked both and the union side has proveded my family alot better life.

It's the protection of the "bad apples" that gives the bad impression of unions... And some of the striking... I've got friends on both sides. I hire mainly union contractors for my projects but unfortunatly the "bad apples" have us looking for other options... not my choice. I've known about the "Lazy B" all my life and what I hear 'some' peeps get away with... there is a reason for the nick name... probably similar to the auto workers union. I find most of the building trades unions (not sure if thats the right terminology) to be great to work with but I think when you get to the manufacturing side, things can get out of hand (hostage style).

I think there has to be a balence. if Unions ran everything... we'd be in REAL trouble. if there weren't unions, regular wages would be real LOW (i.e. not good).

my .02

Good comments Tony.

Building Trades is the proper terminology.

Just one point, we in unions aren't the only entities with the bad apples.

{[It aint the unions, let's work on the health care industry to lower insurance premiums, let's lower CEO and upper executive pay, let's invest in new technology and treat workers as part of the solution not the problem, THAT would be a good start.]

I agree with your concept above. But rather than MANDATE that the above is done, management/ownership/stockholders (gramma and grampa, mom and dad, you and me), have to see if doing those things actually, REALLY, make a measurable differnce in profitability. Based on results in a lot of cases it doesn't.

To reduce CEO pay a lot of people need to show a vote of no confidence, and that, by itself will result in stock losses. Mandating changes by government or regulation causes loss of confidence in strategic planning or just outright change in objectives. In either case the result in the short term is a pull back by the company/corporation. The good side tho is that most corporations are run by real capitalists who will adapt to anything. They will find the greatest profit margin and exploit it. OH boy now I said that word - Exploit. Its a real world concept that capitalists use to maximize opportunities. Change this, change that . . . Capitalists can adapt to anything. We don't like regulation, but when it happens we just say .. . . "given this new set of rules, now what do we do."

And where a capitalist goes is based on profit margin and stockholder value - not primarily based on employee satisfaction. Its a hard world, but thats capitalism. Regulation, mandates, capping, protection . . . those are concepts that live in Washington DC, colleges and union halls.

Based on what I see, you have do'ers and wishers. Right now the wisher's have been winning based on the polls. But the do'ers have always been the ones to - get things done. The wishers are the ones who slow things from getting done. Which is better for America?

Bottom line for me is that you can complain and wait, or adapt and move forward.

All concepts above from one who has hit the dirt a lot tho.

quote:

Originally posted by wheatley193:
There is stuff like that in local 86 aaron. but i dont have a problem helping out the old timers that are still gboing to work with broke down bodies. They have put in there time and have a huge wealth of knowledge to learn from. its the guy that bought his journeyman book and has no clue as to what hes doing and has no pride in his work. Steals every paycheck he makes. Thats what makes me mad and others bad mouth unions. Being in a union has provided me with alot. Bought my first house when I was 23. had medical insurance to pay for all my mx injurys. I have a good pension and annuity. Its a good fit for me and alot of other people. There is nothing wrong with everybody making a decent living. They just need to make that money themselves and not hide behind a union or a big corporation. Take pride in your work and you will always make money without leaching off anyone. I will say it was awesome to see so many people at the p.r.o. rounds with such a tight economy. motocrossers are a tough bunch that wont go down without a fight. I love this sport!!!

Hey Ty this is Bam ;-)...(me too Local 86 member 22 years)..these downturns in the economy always weeds out the lums and permit hands... they get starved out....just like any other trade/business or union or non-union the cream always rises to the top.....I have seen this in our local in about 3-4 cycles...(I am sure Aaron has too)...bottom line to keep working and stay in business we all have to make profit/manhours on our jobs...union or non-union....make money and grow or die...there is no difference there.

One point I will make on the CEO thing and regulating of pay (anyones for that matter)... Look at what we pay people with virtually zero education to play with sticks and balls or to pretend they are someone else (actors) for our amusement...

These CEO's take on a lot of responsibility, manage billions (poorly or wisely) and probably work their butts off (thats how they get there... usually from way down low), and frankly can go to jail for it. It's up to the board (stockholders) to choose whats best for the company. The idea that they (gov) will restrict CEO's pay to something more reasonable ($500k or whatever) is ridiculous. Most politicions can't make it in the private sector therefore they are denied the 'big bucks' (unless they grease the pig), so they want to restrict the 'fat cats'... C'mon! If they do a poor job they will fail... and the cream will rise.

The golden parachutes are a different story...

(Editors note: I didn't read NWMX's "cream to the top" line before I wrote this...

MX516 statement below is so very true but what should we do? How can we ever get balance?

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I think there has to be a balence. if Unions ran everything... we'd be in REAL trouble. if there weren't unions, regular wages would be real LOW (i.e. not good).

------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by Paul 061:

quote:

Originally posted by motodad642:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul 061:
So what about the 100 thousand jobs that will be lost if GM fails? That's 100 thousand folks who had no control over their destiny that are now out of work? It is governments job to protect it's people.

..GM is a very large company with alot of problems... I would rather see them restructure stronger and weed out the waste that is pulling them down then to let a group of politicians with no business expeirence and our tax dollars try to run a business...

Would you be saying that if you owned one of the suppliers business that would be out money should GM file CH11? This issue is about more than GM

Look thats not the point. If a company files chapter 11 or any other fail statis is not the concern of the gov. If you have a co that relies on another co to survive then you are a bad business person. All your eggs in one basket is not how a good business survives. My point is back in the early 40's a German started a concept (the peoples car). And that is what i am saying..... business is business and the Gov is Gov .... they are not the same nor should it be or we might have only one choice of car (ie) VW anyone??

It is the concern of the government when huge companies fail and take out whole sectors of the population. Just like it is the concern of the government when huge companies become monopolies, or do unethical/illegal acts. Would you let the Enron execs walk? Would you let only one oil company run everything? Would you let our defense contractors sell to China. When the livelyhood of the public is at stake it is the governments job to step in. In many areas of the country the local small to medium businesses have no choice but to rely on one large company as they are the only game in town.

Your right Ty, Not all unions are shit.
What I meant was weed out the useless ones that cater to the lazy bastards that are dragging this great country down.
What ever happend to pride in work?
Its really hard for a guy like me to see life from the other side of the fence. I have always been self employed, I give myself raises and pay cuts in good times and bad. I force myself to pay more in Medical Insurance.
Yet Im proud of my companies that I run and always give 100%.
Am I rich? No, but I do OK.
If I hire someone and they turnout to be a lazy pile I can kick their useless ass to the street with no recourse.
Self employment has always worked for me.
Hope you can my side a little better now as I now see yours better.
Peace
Big Eric

NO, and we have laws for the rest. Look I have been laid off for 5 months, I chose to close my Business 8 years ago and work for other contractors... My choice.... I dont blame anyone nor do I think the Gov owes me a job. Very few of my friends in construction are working at this point, but it is slowly picking up. The construction industry is based on the economy. When times are good, people build, when bad they save. it is how it works. I dont expect Jobs to last forever so I save for the lean times and live on a budget. When companies restucture they grow stronger I go back to work. How is that different than any size company? Do you think Boeing should be run by the government just because Airbus is? Not one country in this world has ever been able to survive government control... Not one.
I belive in the daughter, boyfriend theory....... Hands off....LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Paul 061:
It is the concern of the government when huge companies fail and take out whole sectors of the population. Just like it is the concern of the government when huge companies become monopolies, or do unethical/illegal acts. Would you let the Enron execs walk? Would you let only one oil company run everything? Would you let our defense contractors sell to China. When the livelyhood of the public is at stake it is the governments job to step in. In many areas of the country the local small to medium businesses have no choice but to rely on one large company as they are the only game in town.

For the record, I don't think the gov't should step in and run the company. You are correct, there are smart business men to do that. I do believe, however, that if the gov't invests big bucks into a company they should have some say in the business model. Many large investors have a pretty direct hand in the development and direction of the companies they invest in. Actually Airbus isn't run by the gov't they are just highly subsidized by them.

Well thats where I have the problem is when the invest in a company.... new ground hard to say what the next move should be....it is too late to really do much about it now. I was hoping of a more hands off deal but that didnt happen either. Oh well... we shall see how it turns out. See I told you I have self control Issues......Ya dangled the carrot again..........still working on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul 061:
For the record, I don't think the gov't should step in and run the company. You are correct, there are smart business men to do that. I do believe, however, that if the gov't invests big bucks into a company they should have some say in the business model. Many large investors have a pretty direct hand in the development and direction of the companies they invest in. Actually Airbus isn't run by the gov't they are just highly subsidized by them.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul 061:
...It is governments job to protect it's people.

Wrong, its the governments job to protect the rights set forth in the constitution, and Nothing else.

And the Constitution is established to protect the rights of the people.

The Government is the people. Just like the union is it's members.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Which came first, the egg or the chicken?