The one good thing about the stimulus package that we should all be proud of...
"Among the funding measures included in the proposal are $25 million for new ATV trails"...
http://www.foxnews.com/politic...line-piece-stimulus/
The rest if it is JUNK!!!

thats cool, but the rest is junk

I need a 1k fed rebate on a 09 kx250f!

This is ammusing...
---ECONOMIC STIMULUS PAYMENT---
This year, taxpayers will receive an Economic Stimulus Payment. This is a very exciting new program that I will explain using the Q and A format:
Q. What is an Economic Stimulus Payment?
A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.

Q. Where will the government get this money?
A. From taxpayers.

Q. So the government is giving me back my own money?
A. No, they are borrowing it from China. Your children are expected to repay the Chinese.

Q. What is the purpose of this payment?
A. The plan is that you will use the money to purchase a high-definition TV set, thus stimulating the economy.

Q. But isn't that stimulating the economy of China?
A. Shut up.

This stuff going on right now is very very bad.
This so called stimulus package is nothing more than the largest pork givaway in the history of the United State possibly the world. This will do nothing to help long term jobs yet will for sure force the need to raise taxes at some point. Seriously people. This is a bad socialist deal. Man, this is not America anymore if this really does pass.

It should be dubbed the Economic Swindle-us package...

If it does pass, the dollar won't be worth more than a handfull of peso's! O'delay Amigos!

We need financial and business reform not a grocery bag of food.

$$ w/o serious reform of what got us here is wasting evryone's time and money.

Oh, I'll say it. The structure and control of the unions need reform as well.

Yeah, yeah.

I know Tony's been baitin HARD on this thread, just waiting for me. I guess Dom is just that much better of an angler....

Anyway, I couldn't agree with you more Dom. Lets re-assess after the employee free choice act passes and we can get a year or two under our belt.

As far as the unions getting us in the shape that we are in now, if 8% of all Americans being unionized has gotten us in such dire straights, we are really in some big trouble after people can actually excercise their NLRA given right to unionize. The last years of Reganomics have finally given our industry and our economy a death blow, and hopefully, as has ALWAYS been demonstrated by history, the working class (and yes Dom, unions too) will pick up the pieces.

OK, fish on.... Have fun with it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Aaron,

Come on Our system of Gov. works to a point that point being when Greed clouds the judgment of good people and they start rationalizing there greeds ,misdeeds and extortion. Don't just look up on that hill in DC look in your own back yard. If you don't think your kids don't see your compromises and learn to do the same or worse?
Just for fun read a book Jefferson, Franklin,Adams and Lincon. were honest men who had the honesty and integrity to question there own motives at every stage of the development of our system of gov.
I'll take Jefferson an honest slave owner over the the likes of Barny Frank any day of the week.

quote:

Originally posted by Open Class:
We need financial and business reform not a grocery bag of food.

$$ w/o serious reform of what got us here is wasting evryone's time and money.

Oh, I'll say it. The structure and control of the unions need reform as well.

Yeah, yeah.

whats up with the union bashing dom? ive got non union guys who work right next to me , make the same wages , benies etc. what gives? we get great traning and lots of things to do our job better, is something wrong with that

Yes Aaron, I was waiting to hear your response and stance on this so called "stimulus" pkg but I wasn't baiting... It seems that you can put the word "stimulus" in front of just about anything and it sounds more enticing to us commoners when times are down. It is kinda like the "go-green" revolution that is now just a big catch phrase for ad companies... just add the word stimulus and they'll have to buy it.

My bait is how can the people on capital hill seriously say with a straight face that this is right... it is just a bunch of garbage! Heck, it wasn't much more than 3 months ago when we were baulking at and "emergency" stimulus package for $700B... now we just pump in another $800B and think its going make it alright. Its like not being able to afford your house payment but going out and buying new 22's on your CC for your Tahoe... It's ridiculous!

What happened to cutting out the pork barrel spending! Lets just start off with the biggest case of pork in history...

No comment on the lack of Free Choice Act... It's not Unions that caused this it's filthy politicians!

Tony,

There is no better stimulus package than giving working middle class America a living wage.

When the middle class is healthy, so is the economy. When they are healthy, so is consumer confidence, which increases spending. When they are healthy, they take risk in personal business, and also in the stock market and in real estate.

I know small r reganomics feels that you give those at the top all the capital and it will trickle down, but this has been dis-proven time and time again. What is going on now is a lure of sorts, an attempt to try to "kickstart" consumer confidence. If you tear it apart, piece by piece, you will see that it is all a bunch of bs. But if you look at the way a typical American works, you will see that the average citizen is persuaded and influenced every day by the smoke and mirrors of politics. We are a society of sound bites, with little or no deductive reasoning or thought. We react, we don't think. Short attention span American theater.

If you make the matrix think it is better off, they act like they are better off, which gets people to spending, thus sparking the economy.

I guess I'm more like the NEO's of the matrix. I save, I educate myself, and I question just about everything. Don't look at "the stimulus,' look at what it is that corporate america is trying to do. It all becomes quite clear.

A person I really respect sent me an email the other day about middle class financial health, unions, and economic stability, and I can tell you, it speaks volumes. I will post it if I can find it. Look at history, we learn, forget, and have to learn again. Over and over and over.....

Tony, I do appreciate your posts though. You can tell you have a lot of thought behind most of what you post. Some of it takes the appearance of lures capable of catching king size Marlons or maybe even a Blue Whale, but it is all intellectually stimulating. I like that. Its not the garbage single sentence slams that some post with little or no fact to back up their statements.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Aaron,

The Union Way Up


America and its faltering economy need unions to restore prosperity to the middle class.

Why is this recession so deep, and what can be done to reverse it?

Hint: Go back about 50 years, when America's middle class was expanding and the economy was soaring. Paychecks were big enough to allow us to buy all the goods and services we produced. It was a virtuous circle. Good pay meant more purchases, and more purchases meant more jobs.

At the center of this virtuous circle were unions. In 1955, more than a third of working Americans belonged to one. Unions gave them the bargaining leverage they needed to get the paychecks that kept the economy going. So many Americans were unionized that wage agreements spilled over to nonunionized workplaces as well. Employers knew they had to match union wages to compete for workers and to recruit the best ones.

Fast forward to a new century. Now, fewer than 8% of private-sector workers are unionized. Corporate opponents argue that Americans no longer want unions. But public opinion surveys, such as a comprehensive poll that Peter D. Hart Research Associates conducted in 2006, suggest that a majority of workers would like to have a union to bargain for better wages, benefits and working conditions. So there must be some other reason for this dramatic decline.

But put that question aside for a moment. One point is clear: Smaller numbers of unionized workers mean less bargaining power, and less bargaining power results in lower wages.

It's no wonder middle-class incomes were dropping even before the recession. As our economy grew between 2001 and the start of 2007, most Americans didn't share in the prosperity. By the time the recession began last year, according to an Economic Policy Institute study, the median income of households headed by those under age 65 was below what it was in 2000.

Typical families kept buying only by going into debt. This was possible as long as the housing bubble expanded. Home-equity loans and refinancing made up for declining paychecks. But that's over. American families no longer have the purchasing power to keep the economy going. Lower paychecks, or no paychecks at all, mean fewer purchases, and fewer purchases mean fewer jobs.

The way to get the economy back on track is to boost the purchasing power of the middle class. One major way to do this is to expand the percentage of working Americans in unions.

Tax rebates won't work because they don't permanently raise wages. Most families used the rebate last year to pay off debt - not a bad thing, but it doesn't keep the virtuous circle running.

Bank bailouts won't work either. Businesses won't borrow to expand without consumers to buy their goods and services. And Americans themselves can't borrow when they're losing their jobs and their incomes are dropping.

Tax cuts for working families, as President Obama intends, can do more to help because they extend over time. But only higher wages and benefits for the middle class will have a lasting effect.

Unions matter in this equation. According to the Department of Labor, workers in unions earn 30% higher wages - taking home $863 a week, compared with $663 for the typical nonunion worker - and are 59% more likely to have employer-provided health insurance than their nonunion counterparts.

Union or non union, It sounds to me like America needs jobs now. And the definition of living wage will be changing shortly if we keep printing money, a living wage is not the issue... Some jobs will be created from this package but thats not the point... all of it should be going to creating jobs. I don't think a majic wand or smoke and mirrors or even a fuzzy feeling will help us.

I agree that we (Americans) has very short memories but just slamming together a bunch of crap and calling it "stimulas" doesn't work for this feable mind... Just like the emergency $700B that they said we absolutly needed and they knew what they were doing... only to come back a month later to say that 'well maybe that's not the direction we should be going, we're going to spend it this way now'. They will do the same thing with this pkg since they've taken little time to really look into the issues. Heck, I bet hardly any of the 244 yes votes even read the bill. It's like the only option is to keep pump money (i.e.debt) into the system. First it was the housing crisis, then credit, then the big three, now jobs, soon going back to credit cause no one will be able to pay their bills... Not a dollar of this money will go to work for a year or two anyway so what's the big hurry. I am NOT proud to be handing over this debt to my children and grandchildren...

I've read (Fox, CNN, and even MSNBC and then some), I've listened to soundbites and everything in between but I just wish they (capital hill) would cut all the fat off this crap sandwich... cut out anything and everything that does not have to do with jobs creation or relief to the ones who've lost there jobs and get it in the system now.

(Cut everything with one minor exception, the $25M for new trails of course...)

I think I hooked myself...?

Union or non-union people need to have jobs....What has me wondering is where the hell did the first 350 billion go??..does anybody know??..then you see where these bank execs are getting all these major huge bonuses even when their banks were teetering on collapse...or the bank exec that used bailout money to remodel his office bathroom to the tune of 1.2 million??....maybe the banking industry should be nationalized.

quote:

Originally posted by MX516:
This is ammusing...
---ECONOMIC STIMULUS PAYMENT---
This year, taxpayers will receive an Economic Stimulus Payment. This is a very exciting new program that I will explain using the Q and A format:
Q. What is an Economic Stimulus Payment?
A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.

Q. Where will the government get this money?
A. From taxpayers.

Q. So the government is giving me back my own money?
A. No, they are borrowing it from China. Your children are expected to repay the Chinese.

Q. What is the purpose of this payment?
A. The plan is that you will use the money to purchase a high-definition TV set, thus stimulating the economy.

Q. But isn't that stimulating the economy of China?
A. Shut up.

Okay I gotta say it. Friggin awesome post. LMAO. I should be mad. And I am. Once I quit laughing.

NO! AARON! NO!
Unions were not at the heart of our success after world war II. Listen to me people. What you read next is the problem and the fix.

Weather a product is Union made or non union made after world war II America imported very very little imported manufacturerd goods. This is FACT. Manufacturing jobs include every range of pay jobs. High school drop outs to people with masters degrees and higher are needed in business.
What do we have today. We import shit from every country and Export all of our middle class jobs.
That's the problem! The solution?

Give agressive tax breaks to businesses. Not all businesses! Only businesses that manufacture their product in the United States of America. If a product is manufactured in the USA, Material is purchased along with shop supplys, office supplies, hardware that goes into the product. You have to purchase Manufacturing space, purchase machinery and tools. You have to hire building maintainance people. You have to hire designers and machine operators buy computers and hire office people.

If it's made in China all you need is a fucking Boat, Warehouse, warehouse people and a sales staff.

Now people. What will stumulate the economy?
A big liberal payoff package to all the loosers in the country that want money from people that create ALL the jobs in America.? Or give tax breaks to manufacturers making product in Americans, UNION or NOT. That is where all the additional middle class jobs are.

There is no way a conservative or Liberal can argue this. Once manufacturing is strong everything is strong. The money flows everywhere.

I'm done with this. I have already written to all this states elected officials and will continue doing that because it might make a tiny differance. Bitching on this site won't do anything. If you care about The United States of America, you too will write letters to the people that are suppose to represent you. If you don't then you get what they want. Your money and your freedom.
Yes it is that serious right now.

Are we socialists who expect the big goverment to bail us out when we fail? I think that it is irresponsible to bail out companies that fail and pass the bill on to the tax payers. It just tells them that success isn't needed. It took alot for us to get into the mess we are in but we, meaning banks, companies and each individual did it because we were gready and overextended ourselves. You can blame it on predatory lending, people who bought houses and other things they couldn't afford and the corruption of corporate america. You could even blame it on the government for forcing banks to make home loans to people who really didn't qualify and then defaulted on their loan. Ford, GM and Chrysler will tell you that the uaw is part of the cause of their woes although alot of it has to do with them being greedy spending their r&d on suv and trucks instead of more fuel efficient cars like honda and toyota. I don't believe that this stimulas package will help much as I've never seen the government be more efficient with money than a privately run business. When the government runs out they just print more. Why not a tax break for business as that would certainly create more production and jobs than government spending dollar for dollar. Yeah, it sucks but we are Americans and if anything we should come out of this stronger as long as the government lets it run it's course. How is anyone going to learn if the government bails them out? Were is the responsibility? Why should the taxpayers pay for others mistakes? I'm not against helping people out when they are in need but the big bonuses these companies are giving when they are failing is ridiculous. Since when did we start rewarding failures? What does that teach our society?

quote:

Originally posted by ted:
NO! AARON! NO!
Unions were not at the heart of our success after world war II. Listen to me people. What you read next is the problem and the fix.

Weather a product is Union made or non union made after world war II America imported very very little imported manufacturerd goods. This is FACT. Manufacturing jobs include every range of pay jobs. High school drop outs to people with masters degrees and higher are needed in business.
What do we have today. We import shit from every country and Export all of our middle class jobs.
That's the problem! The solution?

Give agressive tax breaks to businesses. Not all businesses! Only businesses that manufacture their product in the United States of America. If a product is manufactured in the USA, Material is purchased along with shop supplys, office supplies, hardware that goes into the product. You have to purchase Manufacturing space, purchase machinery and tools. You have to hire building maintainance people. You have to hire designers and machine operators buy computers and hire office people.

If it's made in China all you need is a fucking Boat, Warehouse, warehouse people and a sales staff.

Now people. What will stumulate the economy?
A big liberal payoff package to all the loosers in the country that want money from people that create ALL the jobs in America.? Or give tax breaks to manufacturers making product in Americans, UNION or NOT. That is where all the additional middle class jobs are.

There is no way a conservative or Liberal can argue this. Once manufacturing is strong everything is strong. The money flows everywhere.

I'm done with this. I have already written to all this states elected officials and will continue doing that because it might make a tiny differance. Bitching on this site won't do anything. If you care about The United States of America, you too will write letters to the people that are suppose to represent you. If you don't then you get what they want. Your money and your freedom.

Yes it is that serious right now.

I agree that we need to move our production back into the USA and tax breaks for companies that do so would be the way to go. China has been screwing with us ever since they got into the wto. There are two ways that communist's planned to overtake the USA. The first was through a physical war which wasn't succesfull. The second was through economic war which China has done a very good job of as they pegged their currency to ours to lower the value of the dollar and then moved our production to China by means of lower labor. The US owes China so much money that it isn't funny. Not only that but we are dependent on them for our manufacturing of many goods. What happens if China's millitary, which is funded in large part by US dollars, decides to go on the offensive? Do we have the infrastructure and trained labor force to manufacture all of the goods needed? Right now, I highly doubt it.